I would suspect most of them are Eastern Europeans posing as students as student houses don't pay council tax

Why are Southampton residents so anti-student? The student population contributes so much to the local economy. Our presence should be welcomed, but all that seems to happen is that we are vilified, blamed for crime, litter, noise and the like. The media/local residents should stop tarring all students with the same brush.

I left the Polygon student ghetto nearly 4 years ago, having lived there for 13 years. I was no longer prepared to put up with the regular damage to my property, the noise, and my children being woken up by swearing and shouting in the early hours. John John should be commended for his considerate behaviour, but unfortunately the same cannot be said for all his fellow students, whose appalling behaviour I witnessed on many occasions over a number of years. That's the reason why so many Southampton residents are anti-student!

Mrs Barter,

And anyone else who has failed to realise, young people cannot afford to buy your houses in the Polygon area, or other areas which have large houses with big rooms, suitable for HMO's, or as the rest of us like to call them house/flatshares. This is when young people want to leave home, gain some independence and live with people of their own age. We can't afford to buy your houses as everyone has made a nice 'profit' on their house, haven't they!?

As for the anti-student and 'Eastern European' comments here, I am a British/UK citizen living in an Eastern European country. We are welcome here, I am disgusted with the attitude towards other nationalities, students or not.

House prices in the UK are ridiculous, and until there is another crash in the property market, HMO's will continue to exist.

Thanks for reminding me why I left the UK!!

I graduated from Southampton in 1996 and this argument about students taking over the Polygon, causing noise and litter was raging then.

From my experience many of the problems were caused by landlords renting to social security tenants and the existing residents themselves.

I do not deny that a minority of students acted inappropriately, but they have become an easy target who will be replaced by another group of students after three years or so.

Students contribute to the local economy and many remain in the area after graduation, providing the city with a range of professional individuals who keep Southampton buoyant.

Lorraine Barter, Alan Whitehead et al. are effectively telling students that they are not welcome, so why don't they simply close down both Southampton and Solent universities?

Within weeks they would then be complaining that the area has fallen apart without the support of the student economy.

I don't feel that the Eastern European comment there was appropriate at all. Council tax is paid on a house even if only one resident is not a student, and is assessed on an individual basis. I hardly believe that anyone would get away with 'pretending' to be a student! Even something as simple as not possessing a student ID card would give that away immediately.

I think the Southampton Solent student union president is right in what he says - as a student myself I can see why local residents don't want to be totally surrounded by students, and certainly it would be great to spread students out more. But in the end, I have to agree that the troublemaking students are a minority,, and blanket statements about students aren't exactly going to help community relations.

Unfortunately, the majority of students are anti-social p1ss heads, who don't give a t0ss for their neighbours.

Is it any surprise that locals are anti-student?

Lucy wrote:
I don't feel that the Eastern European comment there was appropriate at all. Council tax is paid on a house even if only one resident is not a student, and is assessed on an individual basis. I hardly believe that anyone would get away with 'pretending' to be a student! Even something as simple as not possessing a student ID card would give that away immediately. I think the Southampton Solent student union president is right in what he says - as a student myself I can see why local residents don't want to be totally surrounded by students, and certainly it would be great to spread students out more. But in the end, I have to agree that the troublemaking students are a minority,, and blanket statements about students aren't exactly going to help community relations.

Unfortunately, many enrol on basic English courses simply to achieve "student" status.

what a load of hype, move to near the uni and then moan when students live near by

The real problem in this country is caused by the dole sponging low lifes, not students trying to better themselves

Is this the same Lorraine Barter who is well known to be a bit of a loud mouth and serial complainer?

I seem to remember the FitzHugh resident's association writing into the Echo to ask her to stop moaning?

derek james wrote:
I would suspect most of them are Eastern Europeans posing as students as student houses don't pay council tax

This Comment is racist and reflects a lack of knoledge and insight.

Dear Lorraine Barter,
The community spirit in this country left many many years ago when everything was English,it has nothing to do with the student population, but the migration of foreign people coming to this country with all there different cultures.
Lorraine im sorry to tell you, but the English spirit and culture has gone for ever, and you must blame all governments for that.
Good luck.
David Crook

Garry Trestump wrote:
Unfortunately, the majority of students are anti-social p1ss heads, who don't give a t0ss for their neighbours. Is it any surprise that locals are anti-student?

This reflects the ignorance of the author of the comment. I am a student and I work very hard. You clearly are an individual with a mental capacity incapable of compleeting education as you lack the ability to make an inteligent comment and resort to fowl language to draw attention to yourself. Mrs. Barter makes a good point about her community vanishing but in life we have to accept changes and welcome them as this is how progress is made. We all have to live somewhere and get along. I have walked through polygon at night on several occassions, after pub closing time and found the area silent. As for "slumification" I would have to say there are worse places in the world to live. I beleive this is clearly a case of bored individuals with nothing better to do than complain and enjoy having their picture taken in the paper.

This will probably make the local kids play up even more now, they have an excuse / target!

This is a complex problem comprising various different issues; roughly:

1. Further education. Students need to study but that doesn't that mean local communities should be compromised and the local populace kept awake all night. The obligation should be on the university to provide the vast proportion of student accommodation and ‘student nights’ should be restricted to the weekend to allow others peace and quiet during the working week.
2. Sustainable communities. For communities to thrive and prosper a mixed of household types is required from professionals to OAPÂ’s to families to students. Where one type dominates communities tend to fail. Students keep differing hours to the rest of society, fail to contribute financially to local public finances (I donÂ’t mean public as in houses!) whilst placing a greater burden on policing, highway maintenance, refuse collection etc. Urban blight associated with HMOÂ’s devalues property, damages our cultural heritage through e.g. inappropriate property extensions/conversio

ns and paving front gardens.
3. Student behaviour. A significant majority of 18 – 23 year olds are self-centred and socially inconsiderate. This is not only true of students it is a time of life thing. It is an age of minimal responsibility in between childhood and working family life. Increasing the size of universities and the numbers in higher education has escalated the problem with respect to students. That said student culture needs to change. I can see no obvious requirement for students to binge drink whilst studying. Whilst you can argue about numbers of students involved the impact of such behaviour is vandalism and late night noise and families and professional departing these communities. Those less mobile, including OAPs and the less well off have to stay and suffer.

At present we have communities where the tail is wagging the dog. Those members of society who are working and paying subsidies for the others who wish to study, must be given precedence, must be able to sleep nights and must be confident that money invested in improving their properties is not going to be compromised by the advance of HMOÂ’s. Far greater responsibility must be assumed by the University for housing and controlling their students. A stronger emphasis on enforcement, planning and education (by which I mean educating students about their social responsibilities) is required if the continuing blight to our local communities is to be reversed and then stopped. Southampton used to be a city with a university not a university city. The sooner it gets back to that the sooner it will start to thrive again.
(CtB)

abelinda.
your reply to garry trestump proves exactly why further education is not working. spelling!

Re HMO's: houses of multiple occupancy

Regrettably there are a number of micturation-heads on this thread and this militates against a clear examination of the issues.

Yesterday I introduced some positive ideas in the debate on the same
subject that ran then.

In a nutshell, my proposal was to have an HMO Czar in charge of each of the 3 or 4 large districts where the HMO's are present. This person would make it his business to keep close contact with the landlords and to intervene in disagreements between these landlords and people in neighbouring properties who felt that the behaviour of the tenants was unacceptable.

Garry Trestump wrote:
Unfortunately, the majority of students are anti-social p1ss heads, who don't give a t0ss for their neighbours. Is it any surprise that locals are anti-student?

Apart from the fact that I totally disagree with you, what would you do if all present and former students were to treat you with the same disgusting contempt and refused to associate with you?

Think about it for a moment, will you?

Have you ever been in hospital? Most nurses currently employed have been students in the UK or overseas.

Have you been to see your GP recent? Something tells me s/he was a student too!

Do you or someone you know have school age children?
Teachers have gone to college and university before they can teach your children. In other words, they were students!!

And I hope you don't have a bank loan or mortgage, because chances are the person who arranged it used to be a student too.

God forbid that one of these former students got drunk on one or two occasions during their student years - unlike the respectable residents of the Polygon, who are presumably all tea-total!

Next time you are served in a shop or restaurant by someone who looks around 18-22 it is quite possible that they are working alongside their educational studies and don't actually have time for the social life that Polygon residents claim they have.

I have an idea! All current and former students should stop serving people like Garry Trestump and Lorraine Barter!! As I'm assuming you want nothing to do with drunken students, past and present, you're going to be rather stuck as you go about your daily life.

Dear Robert,
You may be well educated, but could you say again to Lorraine and me in simple clear English what the hell you are saying.
Kind regards
David Crook

Lorraine

Just sell your house and move then be done with it. Youre house is cleary in demand, maybe people like you are the cause, having a big house with empty rooms?

hmm wrote:
Lorraine Just sell your house and move then be done with it. Youre house is cleary in demand, maybe people like you are the cause, having a big house with empty rooms?

Dear HMM,
Perhaps Lorraine has worked bloody hard for her house, why should she move.
Kind regards
David Crook

hmm wrote:
Lorraine Just sell your house and move then be done with it. Youre house is cleary in demand, maybe people like you are the cause, having a big house with empty rooms?

Dear HMM,
Perhaps Lorraine has worked bloody hard for her house, why should she move.
Kind regards
David Crook

hmm wrote:
Lorraine Just sell your house and move then be done with it. Youre house is cleary in demand, maybe people like you are the cause, having a big house with empty rooms?

Dear HMM,
Perhaps Lorraine has worked bloody hard for her house, why should she move.
Kind regards
David Crook

hmm wrote:
Lorraine Just sell your house and move then be done with it. Youre house is cleary in demand, maybe people like you are the cause, having a big house with empty rooms?

Dear HMM,
Perhaps Lorraine has worked bloody hard for her house, why should she move.
Kind regards
David Crook

damm right david crook

let the woman stand up for her house, why should she move, if anyone should move its the FOB's living next door to me, 9 men in a 3 bed house,

dont sell ur house loraine

why do people have this image that students do is go out on the **** and cause people trouble. Did anyone ever think that we might actually be busy with our studies and working. Once again people are generalising from a small minority of students. Everyone has a drink once in a while but that doesnt mean that every student goes up the streets of southampton swearing and vandalising peoples property. Shouldnt you all be more worried about the 15 and 16 year olds, who do actually damage peoples cars and attack people when drunk- because they are more trouble then students. Or maybe the areas which are being taken over by minorities of people- such as bevious valley and the polish?! The residents of southampton complaining should really get a life and start actually looking at whats really going on.

Garry Trestump wrote:

Lucy wrote:
I don't feel that the Eastern European comment there was appropriate at all. Council tax is paid on a house even if only one resident is not a student, and is assessed on an individual basis. I hardly believe that anyone would get away with 'pretending' to be a student! Even something as simple as not possessing a student ID card would give that away immediately. I think the Southampton Solent student union president is right in what he says - as a student myself I can see why local residents don't want to be totally surrounded by students, and certainly it would be great to spread students out more. But in the end, I have to agree that the troublemaking students are a minority,, and blanket statements about students aren't exactly going to help community relations.

Unfortunately, many enrol on basic English courses simply to achieve "student" status.

You may be right about that - I haven't heard about that practice but I guess that would work.

No thanks for the "anti-social p1ss heads" statement though. "Majority" is a strong word and I don't believe that it applies here. I don't think, to be honest, that most degrees can be achieved to any satisfactory level by someone that's a "p1ss head" seeing as passing a degree involves as many hours as a full time job, even for an arts student like myself. All the anti-social types that I knew at college seemed quick to realise that there are plenty of other routes out of college, other than university, that allow anti-social behaviour and excessive drinking with a lot less debt than going to university.

SuMi wrote:
damm right david crook let the woman stand up for her house, why should she move, if anyone should move its the FOB's living next door to me, 9 men in a 3 bed house, dont sell ur house loraine

Dear Sumi
I rest my case, If I was in greater power I would like to help you.
Keep going
David Crook

It seems to me like there are several residents who, despite complaining about lack of community spirit, have very little idea of their local communities. Many young people who are not students are taking to HMO's as it's far cheaper for them to do so and make a start in life. Most students that I've come across work part time, have demanding degrees and actually complain about not having enough time to go out, bar a few drinks at a local pub with their house mates now and again. Very few students in student housing (not first years) have the time or money to go out and get wrecked. Even fewer have the anti-social tendencies being attributed to them. There is an anti-social element to any society and students make up a small proportion of it in Southampton. The rest is made up by other, non-student, residents.

As to the comment made about Lorraine selling her house. I agree that she shouldn't do so if she is happy to stay there. I would however point out that it is likely that the area was populated by students when the house was purchased and perhaps a little more research should have been done if she doesn't like students that much.

**** THE WORLD!!!

To DAVID CROOK

This is the latest version of my piece. It might help move things on a bit.








From a thread of Saturday 2nd June about a comment by Alan Whitehead on "student ghettoes"



Posted by: Robert Watmough, Regents Park, So'ton on 6:53pm Sat 2 Jun 07 ( revised)

I think the City Council should have an HMO Czar for each of the major student settlements in the city. This person would be known as a District HMO Czar. He would have, in his regularly reviewed and updated files (whether in hard copy or on a computer) all details of owners/landlords for every student dwelling, including permanent address, e-mails and phone numbers of landlords. All landlords should normally be contactable within a very short time and any alleged circumstances making this difficult must be challenged. The District HMO Czar should be required to meet with landlords on a regular basis and to know them personally. He should receive complaints from anyone with concerns about noise, nuisance etc , investigate all of them and file up the results for himself and for a regular report to the General HMO Czar. The General Czar has overall responsibility and will be a major Council officer. A computer file detailing the responsiveness (or otherwise) of each landlord over a period of time should be drawn up. The Council should have the right to penalize landlords who are unwilling to co-operate. Naturally, appeals will be allowed.

A quota of HMO's should be established in each district and if this quota is exceeded no new HMO should be allowed. Long-term house owners/occupiers will still have to put up with the numerous students this leaves, but we're talking about a working compromise here, based on what is reasonable, not a total cave-in. The concept of "what is reasonable" can be established by negotiations between the different parties and revised in the same way.

I used to live next door to this lady on Harborough Road. Her husband is quite confrontational. I lived with 3 girls and we made hardly any noise atall, yet Mrs Barter's husband would be round constantly complaining about 'doors banging' etc. As for Mrs Barter, she gave the impression that she felt that she owned Harborough Road and all those who lived in it. She told me that she used to 'hide in bushes filming students causing disruptive behaviour' - 'track the level of decibles coming from a student party (even if it were not in her road!)'. It was quite entertaining living next door to this couple, as they seemed quite deluded to the fact that students are human, and not animals. Her husband even tryed to attack me on my own doorstep once when I came downstairs to defuse a situation between himself and one of the girls I lived with.
I would say, as an ex-neighbour, that Mr and Mrs Barter are disruptive people to live next door to, and I feel sorry for any person that now occupies the house I once lived in.

Mr and Mrs Barter - I believe that there is a medical condition that describes feelings of persecution. Im unsure as to whether it applies to you.
Good Luck

I would have fled too with this old bag in my road.

This is a letter I submitted to the Telegragh on this issue which I hope gives a fairly balanced view..

HAVE YOUR SAY
STUDENT TAKEOVER OF NEIGHBOURHOODS

Dear Sirs,

In response to the article in todayÂ’s Telegraph, I would comment as follows:

As a member of the Southampton HMO (Houses of Multiple Occupation) Lobby and delegate at the Nottingham Conference, in direct answer to the question, “students, good or bad?”, one has to say, in the main good. Both, Universities and their Students, are major economic drivers for any town or city and they both play a dominant role within that community which we must accept, if we also want the benefits that flow from that.

This problem is often portrayed as The Community against The Students, which I would emphatically like to refute. The problem is actually one of the unrestricted and unregulated conversion of family homes into HMOs, often by unscrupulous landlords, allowing an area to become totally dominated by a particular group or a transient population, with little or no responsibility for the wider community. Most of us in fact love our students and welcome them as part of our community, provided they behave responsibly and are considerate to their neighbours. As your article points out, students are just as likely to be adversely affected by this ghettoisation or “slumification”, as the indigenous local resident, where there are any left?!

NoÂ…the answer has to be for the community to be able to recover itÂ’s own neighbourhoods, thus creating a more balanced, viable and sustainable community, of which students will of course, still form an important part. Southampton in fact, was the first Council in the country to apply for the Licensing of all HMOs and has recently called upon Government for the required change in legislation. Also, my own Residents Association has received the active support and ongoing participation of both The University and StudentsÂ’ Union in our campaign on this issue. Government has allowed this deterioration and destruction of our neighbourhoods to go on for far too long and deliberately ignored the problem, in spite of much public protest over many years.

The Answer…in part at least, must be to implement a change in the “Use Classes Order” as has been done in Northern Ireland, thus bringing HMOs under Planning Regulations, enabling Local Authorities to take more control of their own towns and cities. Licensing of all HMOs, not just some, should be compulsory and made to proceed apace with licenses not being issued until after planning permission has been granted, unlike at present.

SoÂ… please Minister, hear our pleas and those of our MPs and make the change we need to save our cities.

Chris Bath wrote:

>>I used to live next door to this lady on Harborough Road. Her husband is quite confrontational. I lived with 3 girls and we made hardly any noise atall, yet Mrs Barter's husband would be round constantly complaining about 'doors banging' etc. As for Mrs Barter, she gave the impression that she felt that she owned Harborough Road and all those who lived in it. She told me that she used to 'hide in bushes filming students causing disruptive behaviour' - 'track the level of decibles coming from a student party (even if it were not in her road!)'. It was quite entertaining living next door to this couple, as they seemed quite deluded to the fact that students are human, and not animals. Her husband even tryed to attack me on my own doorstep once when I came downstairs to defuse a situation between himself and one of the girls I lived with.
I would say, as an ex-neighbour, that Mr and Mrs Barter are disruptive people to live next door to, and I feel sorry for any person that now occupies the house I once lived in.

Mr and Mrs Barter - I believe that there is a medical condition that describes feelings of persecution. Im unsure as to whether it applies to you.<<


There will be those who will try to rubbish your testimony, Chris, but it must be there when/if everything is weighed up anew.

It reinforces my suspicion that the Barters are unlikely to be happy in any new dispensation. They should move away, trying (if possible)to ward off any feeling that their move is a "capitulation" or defeat.

It is not unheard-of for such "evacuees" to complain of problems in their new abode as well.

Whatever, we should try to stick to the broader, more general aspects of this debate.

Jerry Gillen wrote:
This is a letter I submitted to the Telegragh on this issue which I hope gives a fairly balanced view.. HAVE YOUR SAY STUDENT TAKEOVER OF NEIGHBOURHOODS Dear Sirs, In response to the article in today’s Telegraph, I would comment as follows: As a member of the Southampton HMO (Houses of Multiple Occupation) Lobby and delegate at the Nottingham Conference, in direct answer to the question, “students, good or bad?”, one has to say, in the main good. Both, Universities and their Students, are major economic drivers for any town or city and they both play a dominant role within that community which we must accept, if we also want the benefits that flow from that. This problem is often portrayed as The Community against The Students, which I would emphatically like to refute. The problem is actually one of the unrestricted and unregulated conversion of family homes into HMOs, often by unscrupulous landlords, allowing an area to become totally dominated by a particular group or a transient population, with little or no responsibility for the wider community. Most of us in fact love our students and welcome them as part of our community, provided they behave responsibly and are considerate to their neighbours. As your article points out, students are just as likely to be adversely affected by this ghettoisation or “slumification”, as the indigenous local resident, where there are any left?! No…the answer has to be for the community to be able to recover it’s own neighbourhoods, thus creating a more balanced, viable and sustainable community, of which students will of course, still form an important part. Southampton in fact, was the first Council in the country to apply for the Licensing of all HMOs and has recently called upon Government for the required change in legislation. Also, my own Residents Association has received the active support and ongoing participation of both The University and Students’ Union in our campaign on this issue. Government has allowed this deterioration and destruction of our neighbourhoods to go on for far too long and deliberately ignored the problem, in spite of much public protest over many years. The Answer…in part at least, must be to implement a change in the “Use Classes Order” as has been done in Northern Ireland, thus bringing HMOs under Planning Regulations, enabling Local Authorities to take more control of their own towns and cities. Licensing of all HMOs, not just some, should be compulsory and made to proceed apace with licenses not being issued until after planning permission has been granted, unlike at present. So… please Minister, hear our pleas and those of our MPs and make the change we need to save our cities.

Jerry, I completely agree and once again the Students' Union is appreciative of the good working relationship we have fostered. I would echo your statements, but also add that any increased costs as a result of increased changes should NOT be passed onto the student.

Further, we support balanced communities. Over the weekend our students were saying the same thing on our forums. However we hope that this won't mean we have to live miles away from the Universities and in expensive housing. Surely it can be achieved by some sensible planning and from cooperation between residents, landlords, students and the council.

Students are residents too... we live here, we want to see Southampton prosper as a city. We don't want to live in slummy areas as much as the next person. However I will say it is difficult to respect an area when you move in to a house with sofas propped up with bricks... nails sticking out of walls, gardens with old bath tubs in... etc.. Clean up the houses, crack down on bad landlords and everyone in general will be happier to live in this fantastic city of Southampton.

Robert, yes people may think I am joking.
HOWEVER I am a Journalism student and the reason this lady told me all of this was for an INTERVIEW. I still have the copy of this as an audio track and would be happy for it to be made available.

bob wrote:
abelinda. your reply to garry trestump proves exactly why further education is not working. spelling!

You have completely deviated from the point. If the higher education service wasn't working when you got ill who would treat you? When you were attacked who would you call.......the police, when you need to take legal action, maybe you'd call a lawyer. Maybe you didn't go to university, maybe your a bit jeaulous, but thats not my problem. This is a place for discussion, not anal nitpicking for the sake of inflating your own ego.

Robert wrote:
To DAVID CROOK This is the latest version of my piece. It might help move things on a bit. From a thread of Saturday 2nd June about a comment by Alan Whitehead on \"student ghettoes\" Posted by: Robert Watmough, Regents Park, So\'ton on 6:53pm Sat 2 Jun 07 ( revised) I think the City Council should have an HMO Czar for each of the major student settlements in the city. This person would be known as a District HMO Czar. He would have, in his regularly reviewed and updated files (whether in hard copy or on a computer) all details of owners/landlords for every student dwelling, including permanent address, e-mails and phone numbers of landlords. All landlords should normally be contactable within a very short time and any alleged circumstances making this difficult must be challenged. The District HMO Czar should be required to meet with landlords on a regular basis and to know them personally. He should receive complaints from anyone with concerns about noise, nuisance etc , investigate all of them and file up the results for himself and for a regular report to the General HMO Czar. The General Czar has overall responsibility and will be a major Council officer. A computer file detailing the responsiveness (or otherwise) of each landlord over a period of time should be drawn up. The Council should have the right to penalize landlords who are unwilling to co-operate. Naturally, appeals will be allowed. A quota of HMO\'s should be established in each district and if this quota is exceeded no new HMO should be allowed. Long-term house owners/occupiers will still have to put up with the numerous students this leaves, but we\'re talking about a working compromise here, based on what is reasonable, not a total cave-in. The concept of \"what is reasonable\" can be established by negotiations between the different parties and revised in the same way.

There is already a perfectly reasonably system in place. If a neibour is causing unreasonable disturbance, you TALK TO YOUR NEIBOURS AND NEGOTIATE WITH THEM. If this does not work then you complain to the local council. I wouldn't be suprised if Mrs.Barter has tried this already and seeing as nothing has been done I would assume that her complaint did not require action. This would indicate that the Barters were simply nitpicking.

I have noticed that MP John Denham is arguing for a reduction in multiple ocupancy homes. Does he ever leave his office!?! He has clearly lost the plot.
1. You can't tell people where they can and cannot live.
2.Does he have any idea how high house prices are?!? He clearly spends too much time sipping lap sang su chon sitting by his pool to have any idea what its like for us, the majority of the population.
3.Universities cannot afford to provide accomadation for all their students.
4.If these demands were made of universities they would become sponsored to an even greater degree further degrading the quality of our educations.

JOHN DENHAM WAKE UP!!!