"However, Ford are a large and important employer and Southampton has been home of the Ford Transit for many, many years"

I did read that Ford originally wanted to build their first new plant in the UK down near where the western docks/container port is now. That 1920's plan was turned down by the local planners at the time so Ford went to Thames estuary and developed sites at Dagenham.

Ford's will follow in the footsteps of Bacardi...They were the OTHER big employer in the area, production started to slow because of the market, Now shut down, all the production now done in Bacardi Germany...cheaper market, cheaper labour...IT's ON THE CARDS...only time will tell.

i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.

The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction!

The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.

"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

wrong again wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.

southy wrote:

wrong again wrote: "The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.

Mouthy wrote:-

"member of the EEC"

What is that then?

Ciaran wrote:

Cyn ikall wrote: most people know that the \\\'Ford group\\\' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global \\\'american\\\' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?

Turkey is secular and certainly isn\\\'t third world.

This idiot is ignorant red neck
Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it

europian economic commonmarket
fred also known has eu

southy wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu

You ignorance knows no bounds does it?

It's the ignorance of people like you wot make this cun tree wot it iz 2day.

Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.

This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.

Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.

southy wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu

The EU was called the EEC until 1992.

EEC = European Economic Community, often known as the Common Market.

Sheitma Pance wrote:
Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.

This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.

Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.

there last appliction was for 2015,and was refused on the grounds,they will not leave cyprus.while turkey remains in that country they will not gain entry.so fords will have along wait.

John wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.

No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.

People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.

Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.

Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !

Gardener wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !

Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener.
Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.

Gardener wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !

You got that right - although I do have some sympathy for real vegetables.

wild bill wrote:

Gardener wrote: Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !

Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener. Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.

"descent conversation" - is that one that goes down?

You and Southy really should meet up because only you two can understand each other.

Ian wrote:

John wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.

No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.

People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.

Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.

And when the jobs go who has won.

That why jobs keep leaving UK

No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all.

bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher
,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person

big nose chamelion wrote:
i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.

It's already full of gypsies and pikies.

southy wrote:
bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher ,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person

You wish. It might just make you feel less inferior. But the majority here can write clear sentences, using the correct form of words.

what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction

The Turkish family that owns over 50% of the Ford plant in Kocaeli also owns most of the Turkish banks in the area and have reportedly offered the Ford motor company finance at a low interest rate. I reckon thats a good reason for Ford to pull out of Southampton.

L oads of Kebabs rock on!

I reckon the Pikey's are already on the Ford southampton site,they disguise themselves as Penske contract workers. They also have a big fat roly poly american manager , i'm surprised the plant hasn't been flattened by her yet. May be all the Ford workers should club together and get her a plane ticket to Turkey so she can flatten the Kocaeli factory.

southy wrote:
what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction

knowlegde = knowledge
whitch = which
grammer = grammar
excells = excels

Admit it, you work for the Echo.

Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep.

The country has been in political turmoil for decades.

It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment.

It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders.

Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world.


Be afraid - very afraid......

and thats why turkey will not be accepted in the eec,and will not till they leave cyprus and hand it all back to the greek cypreian

Matthew wrote:

Ciaran wrote:

Cyn ikall wrote: most people know that the \\\'Ford group\\\' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global \\\'american\\\' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?

Turkey is secular and certainly isn\\\'t third world.

This idiot is ignorant red neck Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it

The fact its a muslim country has a lot to do with it! Religon and religous practise is the biggest threat to society! more war is caused by people believing they have a better imaginary friend then the other side!

as for the size of the countrys wealth who would of known they maybe 16th largest? its the fact they appear a third world muslim dominated backwater that the wealth surprises us all.

I'm guessing you are a turk due to your poor written english.

go back to ya kebab shop or taxi!

The Turkish Government is officially secular; however the population most certainly is not!

The development of a country is not dependent upon the size of the economy. If that was the case then Turkey would be more developed that Australia, which it patently is not. In terms of development I would put it on the same level as Kazakhstan (yes, I have been to both). Please use this link to find out how developed Turkey really is.

http://en.wikipedia.

org/wiki/Developed_c

ountry

Transit production may go to Belgium, but is unlikely to go to Turkey for the reasons already stated by others.

John wrote:

Ian wrote:

John wrote: The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.

No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut. Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on. People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut. Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.

And when the jobs go who has won. That why jobs keep leaving UK No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all.

Well lets see a bit of sacrifice from the CEO of Fords. In fact lets see cuts in all managers wages and maybe see shareholders taking a dividend holiday for a couple of years (thats if Fords have shareholders!!)
Maybe the Fords company profit prediction that they work to could be halved for a couple of years to save the jobs.
It shouldnt be the workforce that has to suffer, high wages or not.

I thought everyone had to pull together but as usual it is expected the workforce has to take the hit.

King Mush, Woolston on 9:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep. The country has been in political turmoil for decades. It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment. It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders. Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world. Be afraid - very afraid......

Yes be afraid if you fear change.

Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it.

wrong again wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

Thank God you put us all right on that Wrong Again because Ford seem to think they do make the Transit in Genk and put that info on their website.
I'll contact them immediately to let them know they are wrong so they can clear out that plant.
Btw if you are going to be unbelievably smug and snide you should probably get your facts straight

no wonder they are threatening us grafters like tihs with you lot chatting on your PCs all day ????????

HAKIM Chilworth:

"Yes be afraid if you fear change.

Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it"

Turkey owes much of its progress to the visionary Kemal Ataturk who dragged a backward country into the 20th century by modern reform.

Arabic script was replaced by Western writings along with banning the fez and other more important factors.

I'm sure you know this Mr Hakim.

However, Turkey is based on Islam and is currently experiencing its own problems with fundamentalists. Similar to Iran - a beautiful country with ana amazing culture and history, but ruled by stupid Islamic clerics. Still wishing to obliterate Israel along with it nuke ambitions.

You spout about 'Muslim countries prospering'? lol

The only Muslim countries that have 'prospered' are mostly due to their good fortune in having oil underneath their deserts! It would still be there if it wasnt for the Western 'infidels' and their technology.


You also spout that England/Britain is 'not the property of Europe'? I think you'll find that MOST UK citizens do NOT want to be part of this so called union - we have been suckered into it.

Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world.


Most Muslim countries are still 'backward' due to the underlying religious undertones that are a cancer of the modern world.

The sheer hypocrisy of this faith is well documented.

I trust you will be watching tonight's TV production on the Qu'uran? It might make for some uncomfortable viewing although I do not know from which angle it is being presented.

Turkey can get stuffed

i wont be going on holiday to turkey again.

nor will i buy a transit if it moves to turkey

bloody bird flu

Hypocricy?

Well king mush, what ever you may call it, it is and will, god willing, to continue to work for us.

I'm sorry you feel so threatened as to say "BE AFRAID".

The only thing that does not change in life is change. Get used to it kingmush. ;-)

A view of Fords plant in Turkey .... (Thanks Google Maps!)

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://www.goog
le.co.uk/maps?f=q&am
p;hl=en&geocode=
&q=Ford,+Kocaeli
,+Turkey&ie=UTF8
&ll=40.871271,29
.84654&spn=0.305
976,0.880132&t=h
&output=embed&am
p;s=AARTsJrx1Dh4QMo6
5nDKvjBASWcsKNsHtQ">
</iframe><br /><small><a href="http://www.goo
gle.co.uk/maps?f=q&a
mp;hl=en&geocode
=&q=Ford,+Kocael
i,+Turkey&ie=UTF
8&ll=40.871271,2
9.84654&spn=0.30
5976,0.880132&t=
h&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF
;text-align:left">Vi
ew Larger Map</a></small>

Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world

It is the modern world that has failed you sir.

You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.

Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.

Backward? I think not!!!

Hakim wrote:

Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world

It is the modern world that has failed you sir.

You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.

Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.

Backward? I think not!!!

hakim m8 you for get its the westerners that are dragging you forward.not your self.and its only happening in oil bearing and british commonwealth counrtys.you only got to look at the countrys that are not on them list.

Hakim wrote:

Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand
more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the
Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world

It
is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the
muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures
being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god
willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west
failed.
Backward? I think not!!!

So you simultaneously sing the praises of simple living and claim that the Muslim workd is moving forward and becoming an advanced economy? Bit of a contradiction, no? Seems to me you're becoming the very thing you despise.

So once you've become an economic force to be reckoned with, presumably God will change his alleigance once more and implore his Christian followers to wage war on Muslims. Excellent news. I look forward to the rivers of Muslim blood being spilt, and the entire Muslim population treading on eggshells for fear of upsetting the Christian world in some way. Don't forget, images of Our Redeemer will be taboo, and punishable by death. I personally look forward to having a mansion in Turkey, and huge amounts of spare cash floating around, all funded by the Turkish natives, whilst I preach hatred toward all Muslims

i all ready told hakim that the musslims will have to change,and they not got long to to change,only till the present crown is dead,then after that watch what happens.

Hakim wrote:

Our former \'enemies\' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world

It is the modern world that has failed you sir. You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines. Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed. Backward? I think not!!!

How come Hakim is posting from the privileged West? I dont normally go down any personal roads but just wonder from which country and perspective he comes from?

The 'modern world' has mostly benefitted mankind and we now live in a fairly healthy age, apart from those unfortunate people who happen to be born in a 3rd world country. Many of these countries' problems are self-inflicted - just take a look at the African countries many of which embrace Islam.


I guess Hakim is alluding to Dubai and its billion dollar developments? Thanks to oil this is all SPEND SPEND SPEND so hardly the result of any Eastern technology or advancement.

This explains why we are 'pitiful'? lol

Listen pal - the West has always been more successful over the last 2,000 years and will not be subjugated by any religious fervour that has manifested itself in such an evil way in recent years.

How come your Arab 'brothers' don't appear to use their obscene riches to help the Palestinians?

We all know why - it's because the Muslim world secretly loves the idea of conflict and the poor Palestinians are a very convenient excuse for waging war against infidels, Zionists or whatever stupid label they wish to use.

If most Muslims prefer a 'simple' life then why dont they all sod off to the desert and live in tents, caves with none of the advantages of the West that they despise so much?

I havent got time nor inclination to write a Mush essay on any particular Muslim nation but most of them are in a mess, despite having massive oil revenues.


Saudi Arabia is a feudal system and the many oil-rich sheiks live in a kind of opulence that seems at odds with the 'simple' outlook of Islam.

I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.

If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly.

Maybe you want me to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know, is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.

A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.

I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack, manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.

Hakim wrote:
I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to
say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You
may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a
god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.
If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly. Maybe you want me
to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know,
is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.
A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth
is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.
I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack,
manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.

Hmm. I'm unconvinced that this passive-aggressivene
ss is really in keeping with the spirit of what you're trying to say. Oh, and what's with this "the love of a god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting

The love of a god, is what it is meant. Nothing more, nothing less. If i asked you to look for riches in the love of MY god, i would be falling into a trap of my own making, and one of which you would thrive.

So when you say with an arrogance and an obvious ignorance "Oh, and what's with this "the love of a god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting", you have not only failed in your attempted ridicule of a possible mistake you hoped i'd made, you also failed in your attempt to prove to the site that i accept no other than Allah.

Either way, you have failed!

Talking of gods, your name Neville Kneivel, is that after the stunt rider? Was he not a god in some peoples eyes?

nevelle m8,before you say any thing for it or not for it,learn the muslim history,how and where it came about,its a mix religion with with diffrent ideas from diffrent religion,:- like the way some force there female's dress is from a far east pagan religion that belives in the subpression of females,and what they belive in is christainty, and when you look at muslim history they have been on the march by force,look at the end of the eastern roman empire when it ended it was by invading the areas of turkey to morocco.whitch at the time was orthodox,jewish and pagan.and when they cant beat you in a straight war they use other ways, like flooding a country with there belivers then use terrorist tactics,to be a muslim means you belive in subpression.while holding the olive branch

Mr Southy dear fellow.

It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!

nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers


If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.

Hakim wrote:
Mr Southy dear fellow.

It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!

nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers


If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.

I'm having real trouble reconciling your airs of being a noble human being, and your obvious contempt for anyone who does not agree with you. I've read many of Mr Southy's posts here, and yes, their literacy leaves something do be desired. However, the content is consistently intelligent and informed. When he gets excited about a subject, his writing becomes a little rushed. I can only conclude that he suffers from dyslexia, an affliction which has no bearing on the level of his education, or his intellect. Sneering at him for this does little to further your claims to being pure of heart. Nor does your constant passive-aggressive sniping at all westerners.

I for one do not think Southy looks like a fool. I do, however, feel that your eagerness to fall back on spelling critique speaks volumes about how ill-thought-through your own opinions are. There is nothing at all to suggest that a certain standard of literacy and education is pre-requisite to giving a credible debate, and indeed there is a school of thought which says that intelligent discourse can be used to disguise weak points. As far back as the ancient Greeks, people have written of how powerful rhetoric can be used to persuade people of points which may not actually be logical at all. History is rife with great orators and writers who persuaded the masses they were right, when in fact they were nothing of the sort.

To wit, an argument and the way it is presented are two separate dimensions, and the quality of each can vary in quality independently. It's not an oxymoron. An idiot can still be right, and a clever man can still be wrong. Don't make the mistake of dismissing a refutal on such trivial grounds as spelling, and don't fall into the intelligence trap of believing that just because you make your point more eloquently than another, it is a more valid point

Talking down to people of a lesser perceived intellect than yourself, will only attract a stronger intellect to counter you. Don't tug at that thread

Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides ! I have respect for any religion - on condition it is kept to those that wish to follow. I for one will not be brainwashed. I make the decisions that affect my life, I cannot hold anyone or anything responsible for those times that things go awry. Respect for other people does not have to include a religion.

So what happens with all the unskilled dross that such an event creates?

Factories are rather good at giving work to people that fall into the Taylor/White profile - They put this bit on that bit then promotion after five years doing that has them putting that bit into this bit and drilling a hole here then after twenty years they get to put this and that bit in the hole that this bit fits in but to all and sundry on the outside they 'Build Ford Vans'

Turkey is a good option - Learn the lingo, read up the Qoran get yourself a pretty prayer mat, practice sleeping on the floor under six 5KW fires and pop in a bucket of flies a day and hey it will be easy and its work after all albeit for a little less than youre worth and you dont need to book up your holidays in Turkey every year.

Good Deal!

Lets get real here most of the production guys were surprised when they started work there cos they thought Ford Van Plant was a Dutch painter anyway

So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?

I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.

The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam. You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.

As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.

Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides !

The "YOUR" in question relates to the postion of southy standing firm as if islam has no place in this country. Thus meaning "YOUR COUNTRY" as in, i'm not welcome!

I hope this clarifies!

neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.
hakim to answer your question will telling you maths,all types of history,all types of geography and physics top grades.
but my point is ford in turkey will not being suppying europe with the transit van, they will never be allowed into eec while they remain in cyprus,and not hand it back to greece who that island belongs to

for got a bit hakim my stance on islam in this country will need and will change if it wants to remain here.even if it ends up force on islam.

May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam. In the main, I have NO problem with any race, creed, coluor or religion so long as it does not impinge on me or my fellow man.


You may find this strange, but I have had dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries.

Like most human beings, they are friendly, polite and live fairly respectable lives.

My main stance lies with the fundamentalists that have hi-jacked Islam to further their narrow minded ideology based on twisted interpretations of the Koran, Hadiths and all manner of Islamic literature. ALL written by MAN - not any god.

Religion is MAN MADE and I have been aware of this for most of my life.

How dare anybody suggest that I need any god? I dont believe in fairy tales and am constantly amazed how so many people can be suckered into it.

I actually live a well balanced life and do put a lot back into for others.


The main problem with trying to argue - or preferably - debate with any Muslim is based on their reluctance to condemn the actions of their lunatic fringes. They have their own enemy within but fail to act as they are all 'brothers'

Full stop.

Well Mr Mush, when you say;

"Be afraid - very afraid......"

followed by;

"May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam".

I find your posts - as on previous occassions about myself and islam - contradictive and slightly amusing, unless of course, you are asking someone to be something you are not and would not be, to which i find this not only contradictive, but also insulting and an impingement on their intelligence as to not form their own opinion without you.

I find it difficult to see why you constantly talk of a contradictive religion, yet speak in contradictive tongue.

I am sure you will reply, with the same slight of rhetoric, with the normal twists and turns, but this is, not only expected, but a integral part of your posts.





loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith

The above are but a few of the posted words on this listing alone.

I dare to say one thing regarding southys intellect, and i am pulled through the mill for my words, yet all these nasty words above have had no reply - until now - from myself, as i try to keep the postings on a respectable level.

If you do like open debate and honesty Mr Mush, as you believe islam fails in, i hope next time you have "dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries", you lay it on the table beforehand, your beliefs and fears (Or non-fears, depending on which of your postings we read) so the muslim you have dealings with knows exactly where he stands.

Surely being the stand up honest human you are, who speaks of "hypocrisy of this faith" when islam is concerned, you would be first to tell a muslim how you felt, as not to undermine yourself and be exposed as a hypocrite of which you hold disdain. Wouldn't you?

Remember this Mr Mush, you know you are dealing with a muslim as you have told us you've had many dealings, so obviously know this to be fact, so with all your prejudices about the faith - and there have been many on this site from you - you can still make a choice to not deal. He on the other hand only knows you are there to do business, and can but assume you have no ill will towards him or his faith. Straight away the weight of yourself and the muslims belief, is firmly in your favour, though you still choose to deal.

Hypocracy is a word Mr Mush, you should choose wisely!

So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?

Correct.

I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.

Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive.

The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam.

Is it a phobia? Why? You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear

You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.

I can. You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract betterness over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it.

As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.

So it's all about respect, then? You feel wronged, and lash out at those you think have wronged you. Tell me again that bit about pureness of heart? Nope, the game's up, chum. You're inciting flamewars and hoping to use Western guilt to avoid any comebacks. It hasn't worked, and you've reverted to type and decided to pick holes in someone elses personality. End of story

Southy wrote:

neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.

Ah. Figured it was something like that. Don't let the underhand debating tactics of Hakim phase you. Your points come through well enough

i dont i could tie him up in knots over history of his religion if i wish to do so,what a lot muslims belive is that there religion came from the middle east when it dont it came from asia,and is a mix of christain and pagan faiths.but then again so is christain religion.

Neville Kneivel on 10:27am today

So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?

Correct.

I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.

Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive.

The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam.

Is it a phobia? Why? You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear

You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.

I can. You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract betterness over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it.

As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.

So it's all about respect, then? You feel wronged, and lash out at those you think have wronged you. Tell me again that bit about pureness of heart? Nope, the game's up, chum. You're inciting flamewars and hoping to use Western guilt to avoid any comebacks. It hasn't worked, and you've reverted to type and decided to pick holes in someone elses personality. End of story

End of story now you say so??

I don't think so.

Every part of your post bleeds fear.

Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive.

Naive on your part as fear is laced throughout your post.

You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear

No, i said "middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison". If you take this as a threat, a sad little victim like you will never prosper, for it's everyone elses problem. Please stick to what i said, as twisting words in favour of your quest, only serves to show the belief you are a stronger intellect, is greatly mis-judged!

You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract betterness over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it.

My responses were in direct response to provocation, READ ALL THE POSTS, then you'll find i didn't incite. To do this though, would prove you wrong and bolster the fact you are not as smart as you try (but fail) to make out, and we couldn't have that could we. So don't bother reading from the top, as to prove your own foolishness will only serve you to lean more in to your self induced victimisation!!

So it's all about respect, then? You feel wronged, and lash out at those you think have wronged you. Tell me again that bit about pureness of heart? Nope, the game's up, chum. You're inciting flamewars and hoping to use Western guilt to avoid any comebacks. It hasn't worked, and you've reverted to type and decided to pick holes in someone elses personality. End of story

Pureness of heart does not dis-count retaliation to remarks about my religion or muslims, it's strange that i'm held accountable for daring to post on the obvious of one person, that obviously struggles to string a legible sentence together, yet yourself southy, kingmush etc can destroy the muslims as a whole, with no accountability.

For all your beliefs that you are a stronger intellect, you have certainly weakened your stance with the utmost of unfound and pathetic comments.

If i have, in your vast opinion, failed to say what i believe, or in some way you feel i'm not telling you something, please tell.

I'm sure you will have more to say, but unlike yourself with "end of story" and kingmushs' "full stop", this debate is open and it's not for me to say when the story should end. So i'll say it again "please tell" as to stifle debate would surely be in manys opinion of islam, the muslims belief!!

It seems you misunderstand the phrase "hot button", Hakim. I'm merely pointing out that Islam is a large topic of discussion all over the world right now. If you think that recognising that is somehow "fear", you're even more naive than I first thought. Simply putting everything down to "fear of Islam" is a really lame straw man, at best.

No, i said "middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison". If you take this as a threat, a sad little victim like you will never prosper, for it's everyone elses problem. Please stick to what i said, as twisting words in favour of your quest, only serves to show the belief you are a stronger intellect, is greatly mis-judged!

Now I'm party to your ad hominem, too. Well, it certainly doesn't pay to dare disagree with this particular Muslim, does it? Why do you have such trouble accepting criticism without making very personal remarks in response?

My responses were in direct response to provocation, READ ALL THE POSTS, then you'll find i didn't incite. To do this though, would prove you wrong and bolster the fact you are not as smart as you try (but fail) to make out, and we couldn't have that could we. So don't bother reading from the top, as to prove your own foolishness will only serve you to lean more in to your self induced victimisation!!

More ad hominem. Sorry, Hakim, your endless rhetoric won't work on me. You have a proven history of indulging in these arguments. You are singularly incapable of responding to comments about your faith without using at least one logical fallacy. Playground tactics, nothing more

Pureness of heart does not dis-count retaliation to remarks about my religion or muslims, it's strange that i'm held accountable for daring to post on the obvious of one person, that obviously struggles to string a legible sentence together, yet yourself southy, kingmush etc can destroy the muslims as a whole, with no accountability.

It isn't strange at all. You counter every comment on Islam that you don't like, with a personal insult. It's a complete debating no-no. Point to anywhere where myself, KM, southy or anyone else has "destroyed" Islam. Nowhere. Some observations have been made. That is all. Personally, I have only commented on flaws in your reasoning, nothing more. You asserted that Southy's opinions were to be discounted because his spelling doesn't measure up to some arbitrary rules you introduce whenever faced with a point you can't/won't address. I opined that that is a fallacy.

For all your beliefs that you are a stronger intellect, you have certainly weakened your stance with the utmost of unfound and pathetic comments.

See: Begging the question. Simply labelling my comments as "pathetic" might fool kids in the playground, but it won't wash with anyone remotely attenuated to flawed reasoning. Try harder

If i have, in your vast opinion, failed to say what i believe, or in some way you feel i'm not telling you something, please tell.

You are here to have arguments about the relative merits of Islam vs. other ways of life. You are not above using logical fallacies galore to that end. It's unclear what you actually believe, because whenever challenged on a general point, you counter with personal comments. Kid yourself all you want that that counts as debate, but it doesn't. Play your little games all you want, but by sulking and getting upset when it doesn't quite go your way, you just look silly.

I'm sure you will have more to say, but unlike yourself with "end of story" and kingmushs' "full stop", this debate is open and it's not for me to say when the story should end. So i'll say it again "please tell" as to stifle debate would surely be in manys opinion of islam, the muslims belief!!

It's not a debate. You may like to pretend it is, but your inability to avoid ad hominem makes a mockery of the process of debate. You have no real interest in debate, you simply want to impose your belief that Islam is in some abstract, vague way, better than something else. You're not even sure what that something else is. Don't think that just because you have a vocabulary, you can hide your little games away from everyone else. You can't

I challenge you to address these points without calling me names, or insulting me in any way. I bet you 12 virgins you can't do it

like i said before, muslims need to change there ideas,like give there kids the freedom of choice,more so there woman folk,we all stand at the bottom of that mountain looking up,no one religion is the right religion,all religion is a brainwashing, and really needs to be done away with.

Now I'm party to your ad hominem, too. Well, it certainly doesn't pay to dare disagree with this particular Muslim, does it? Why do you have such trouble accepting criticism without making very personal remarks in response?

Ad hominem? Thats exactly what you have done in this response. You quoted me, then went on to dismiss my words, and followed by "doesn't pay to dare disagree with this particular Muslim".

You certainly are not very good at this - what i would call debate, though you wouldn't - are you?

More ad hominem. Sorry, Hakim, your endless rhetoric won't work on me. You have a proven history of indulging in these arguments. You are singularly incapable of responding to comments about your faith without using at least one logical fallacy. Playground tactics, nothing more

Proven history of listening to every anti-muslim post, and putting my point across to the wrath of the same old people. As for playground tactics, even someone who fears islam as much as you, should know those words are indeed playground tactics in their own right. Maybe you don't though!

It isn't strange at all. You counter every comment on Islam that you don't like, with a personal insult. It's a complete debating no-no. Point to anywhere where myself, KM, southy or anyone else has "destroyed" Islam. Nowhere. Some observations have been made. That is all. Personally, I have only commented on flaws in your reasoning, nothing more. You asserted that Southy's opinions were to be discounted because his spelling doesn't measure up to some arbitrary rules you introduce whenever faced with a point you can't/won't address. I opined that that is a fallacy.

So you do not see the words;
loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith

as destroying islam? Well if not, your balance of my opinion compared to mine of your opinion, needs serious attention.

My counter comments are tame compared to the likes of kingmush and southy, you however take the more sly approach as to try and goad a response with ambiguous remarks, you fail to remember, islam has been at the hands of the west for many years. Though many of the west have great attributes and honest hearts, the likes of yourself, cannot for one second hide behind veiled sentences, which even to the impartial, are laughable.

If you read something you do not agree, you may respond, and use the "ad hominem" you so failingly use, as a get out clause, i however, feel that dialogue is always the way forward, and will continuwe to do so. If this means the odd snipe at someones literacy, or standing firm when people post asking the public to be "afraid, very afraid", i will.

Though just to clarify, words used like;

loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith

have not lead me into the realms of name calling of the west to anywhere near this degree. You see, your petty attempt and accusations, failed to take into account these words.

Ad hominem eh? How strange!

Ad hominem? Thats exactly what you have done in this response. You quoted me, then went on to dismiss my words, and followed by "doesn't pay to dare disagree with this particular Muslim".

That's hardly ad hominem. It's clear that you patently dislike being spoken back to. Proven time and time again.

You certainly are not very good at this - what i would call debate, though you wouldn't - are you?

Nope. I'm not. I'm far more used to proper reasoning.

Proven history of listening to every anti-muslim post, and putting my point across to the wrath of the same old people. As for playground tactics, even someone who fears islam as much as you, should know those words are indeed playground tactics in their own right. Maybe you don't though!

Repeatedly calling a dislike a "fear" will not make it so. I don't fear Islam. I disagree with many of their practices. Why you think that means fear is beyond me.

So you do not see the words;
loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith

as destroying islam? Well if not, your balance of my opinion compared to mine of your opinion, needs serious attention.

I agree. We seem to have different ideas about what "destroy" means. Those are, after all, only words. I don't see what's going to be destroyed by them. Please, none of your predictable rhetoric in response to that.

So now I'm the focus of your petty ramblings, because you feel slighted by what I say. Nothing to do with opinions on Islam, you just don't like being spoken back to. Interesting. I once again put it to you that you are not here for a debate, more for a good, old-fashioned slanging match. Which you want to "win".

Talking of winning, you owe me 12 virgins. You really weren't capable of responding without insult. Oh, make sure they're female. I'm not falling for that one again

Apologies for the mess in the above post. The website software failed to pick up the markup :-(

So as usual, you have nothing.

If you think words cannot destroy, or be used in an attempt to destroy, i believe you are wrong. Many suicides and loss of lives have been a direct result of words destroying people. The words you use, though not on their own enough to destroy, would in time be enough to destroy islam if not fought against. The general belief of most muslims, is rhetoric from governments to streets, down to the school yard, and the use of their words, are used as a tool with an ultimate goal of destroying. As for calling a dislike a "fear", maybe your fears drive your dislikes or vice versa.

Now for the bet, again you took it upon yourself to not only place a bet, you decided you had won and claimed a prize, without me once agreeing.

The 12 virgins you laughingly used as the prize as to fan the flames you again failed to ignite, was almost not worth mentioning - as the whole point was to ignite flames, meaning your remarks are inflammatory - The reason i have replied was to show you what a pathetic show you made, whilst proving my point of your making veiled sentences rather than all out words of hatred. How sad! I do not gamble, whether for money or self gain on this forum.

Good luck with your life, i truly hope you find the love which i have found and you so lack.

Somehow, i don't think so!

Penske logistics (or the pikies as one gent put it), have a long and prosperous partnership in the states and have kept ford going not only because they employ men to do the same job ford would but they do it at half the price.

On the other hand if I were a betting man, which im not.
I would presume if fords were loosing as much money as people are saying, they would be looking for a quick fix solution, which would see all contractors gone and leave the two ford shifts to cover all of the remaining jobs, but over a single shift.
this would then mean that Turkey would be granted a single shift in there plant to build the same transit!!

The only contractor to probably stay would be the cleaners as I cant see a fordy lowering there self to do that now, can you?

This probably isn't far from what will happen so good luck in your new cleaning jobs penske.

NEWS QUOTE:

"The value of private number plates climbed to new heights today when a wealthy Arab bought the registration "1" - for a record £7milion.

"I bought it because it's the best number," said Saeed Khouri, a member of a prominent Abu Dhabi family that made its fortune in property.

"I bought it because I want to be the best in the world."

Khouri refused to reveal how many cars he owned and which one of them will carry the record-breaking single digit plate"

£7M EH? Could feed the Palestinian refugees for some while.

Hypocrisy of the super rich Arabs.

Tip of the iceberg and could fill these pages with many more examples of the divisive nature of Islam.


Over to you Hakim.


I will be responding to your latter posts soon but cant waste too much precious time

Looks like this thread is petering out?

If so, I cant be @rsed to waste more time.

Isnt it weird how the militant fundamentalist Muslims keep banging on about the naughty nasty Westerners who have 'invaded' their 'holy lands'?


Without checking right away - I seem to recall that the Arabs came marauding into the well established Christian Byzantium well before the birth of Mohammed followed by the creation of Islam?

This was followed by the Christian Crusaders a couple of hundred years later (13th C etc)

We then saw the rise of the mighty Ottoman Empire following on from the 1453 overthrow of Constantinople (Istanbul) and some 500 years later we seem to have even bigger problems with hardcore Muslims.

If the West had not been 'invited' into these precious 'holy lands' i.e. vast inhospitable deserts with its superior technology then the oil would still be sitting there!

Muslims do have selective memories dont they?

I bet many of them were 'angry' about the well balanced TV programme on the Koran - did anybody watch it?

Very enlightening to most open minded free-thinking people as it showed clear anomalies in the writing, source and interpretation of a book that has caused so much bloodshed around the world.

Early Christians and paranoid Catholics did get up to some nasty tricks a few centuries ago but the world has moved on by now.

Others seem hellbent on reliving the Middle Ages but taking full advantage of modern life.

Paradox or what?

Bob wrote:

wrong again wrote: "The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

Thank God you put us all right on that Wrong Again because Ford seem to think they do make the Transit in Genk and put that info on their website. I'll contact them immediately to let them know they are wrong so they can clear out that plant. Btw if you are going to be unbelievably smug and snide you should probably get your facts straight

Without getting into the name calling and slagging off, Ford do NOT make the Transit in Belgium anymore although Genk Plant still make some body panels that are used in Southampton. Transit Production from Genk was moved to Kocaeli, Turkey about 2003. Genk used to make Transit & Mondeo. With Transit gone they used the old Transit production area to make the Galaxy and S-Max (and they still make the Mondeo). I've no idea why the Ford website hasn't been updated, but to err is human…

Rob wrote:

Bob wrote:

wrong again wrote: "The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE

Thank God you put us all right on that Wrong Again because Ford seem to think they do make the Transit in Genk and put that info on their website. I'll contact them immediately to let them know they are wrong so they can clear out that plant. Btw if you are going to be unbelievably smug and snide you should probably get your facts straight

Without getting into the name calling and slagging off, Ford do NOT make the Transit in Belgium anymore although Genk Plant still make some body panels that are used in Southampton. Transit Production from Genk was moved to Kocaeli, Turkey about 2003. Genk used to make Transit & Mondeo. With Transit gone they used the old Transit production area to make the Galaxy and S-Max (and they still make the Mondeo). I've no idea why the Ford website hasn't been updated, but to err is human…

Thankyou for explaining all that Rob, i was far too smug to bother.

BOB - How did u get on contacting Ford??