Barbed wire banned in case vandals get hurt (From This is Hampshire)
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Bursledon allotments in Southampton banned from using barbed wire
4:30pm Friday 4th September 2009 in News
Mervyn Hobden
HEALTH and safety chiefs have banned the use of barbed wire at Southampton allotments plagued with vandalism in case thieves hurt themselves.
The decision has been branded ‘crazy’ by allotment owners at the Muddy Bottom East Allotment on Bursledon Road where property is being damaged up to three times a week.
Gardeners at the popular spot demanded the barbed wire after being left hundreds of pounds out of pocket by thieves breaking into sheds and uprooting produce.
But following a visit from two health and safety officers in June horticulturists were left stunned when they were told they could not have it in case vandals hurt themselves climbing over it.
Grandad Mervyn Hobden, 67, a former Merchant Navy pump man, of Thornhill, who rents several allotment spaces at Muddy Bottom East, said: “It’s a crazy situation. Health and safety have told me they have a liability towards the trespasser to make sure they don’t hurt themselves while they are vandalising or stealing our property.
But at the same time they will not accept any liability towards our damaged property, which is supposed to be secure for rent paying tenants.
Recent incidents have included 15 sheds being smashed open, water butts pushed over and taps turned on.
Mervyn added: “There have been many people who have packed it in over the years because of the vandalism People are frightened and they shouldn’t be.
The council should be doing everything they can to help us.”
Bizarrely Southampton City Council has allowed barbed wire that was put up around the entrance to the allotments to remain, because it is “historic”. Under the rules no new wire can been added.
A spokesman said: “We are working with the police and allotment holders to address concerns about vandalism within our allotments. On the one hand we need to make sure our allotments are secure, while on the other we need to make sure our allotments are safe places.
“A member of the public that falls on the barbed wire can prosecute the council and that can include thieves. It’s for health and safety reasons.”
Sonia Blandford, treasurer of the Southampton Allotment and Garden Society, said vandalism across Southampton was a ‘huge problem’.
She said: “If people decide to break in to your property the fact that they have chosen to do that should negate any claim against you if they hurt themselves.
What about our rights?”
Donna McDaid, a spokeswoman for the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners Ltd, said: “The whole health and safety thing has gone too far.
Personally, if I saw a barbed wire fence I certainly would not break in.”
Comments(58)
Linesman
says...
11:48am Fri 4 Sep 09
gristle
says...
11:57am Fri 4 Sep 09
bumblysaint
says...
11:59am Fri 4 Sep 09
any common sense or logic.
They really do blight all of our lives with their stupid
rulings.
Once again, worry more about the criminal element
who commit the crimes than
the victims.
Total and utter stupidity, no
wonder this country's in such a state,and still we take it.
Like I said, it's time to bring
some sense back into the way we deal with things.
God help us if it continues much longer like this.
Southampton Heart
says...
12:08pm Fri 4 Sep 09
The HSE are pathedtic.....I feel so sorry for the vandals?......they might get hurt...what a load of manure.
Next Pad Locks will be made illegal as the poor theives can't nick anything.
What is happening to our country!.
I bet my comment will be removed as it will affend the poor vandals?.
IanRRR
says...
12:14pm Fri 4 Sep 09
allsaintsnocurves
says...
12:19pm Fri 4 Sep 09
I think they should start recommending thieving at career guidance meetings it clearly pays well and you get well looked after!
ken j
says...
12:22pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Disallusioned Saint
says...
12:31pm Fri 4 Sep 09
SW deny-they - ought to be the other way round - they deny they did it!!
Southampton Heart
says...
12:36pm Fri 4 Sep 09
ken j wrote:Won't be long if not already Ken.
Why do you think every one wants to live here, the criminal is protected and thehonest folk persecuted!bet the muslims wont allow it when they take over,there will be a lot of single gloves around
BP
says...
12:38pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Crime would have paid so much more with state benefits to supplement my ill gotten income.
With the dogooder brigade behind me the sky would have been the limit.
More Sense Than Money!!
says...
12:47pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Yes indeed, they wont tolerate that for long in THEIR country!!
Condor Man
says...
1:06pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Jparcoeur
says...
1:11pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Surely simply signing the barbwire with a warning would be sufficient for legal coverage.
goard
says...
1:12pm Fri 4 Sep 09
goard
Big Mac
says...
1:29pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Torville & Dean
says...
1:38pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Northamboy
says...
1:52pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Torville & Dean wrote:Two more words are 'politically and correct'
Two words that have removed the 'Great' from Britain: Health and Safety! Bloody idiots.
As you say Bloody idiots.
Tallula
says...
2:00pm Fri 4 Sep 09
soton1980
says...
2:06pm Fri 4 Sep 09
CompassPressureGroup
says...
2:10pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Condor Man wrote:That is the advice given by police when protecting homes. So perhaps it makes sense to be no different for allotments, although this does, on the face of it, seem crazy. Its dreadful where it does occur, though many allotments do have sufficient security, or there are few problems with intrusion and/or vandalism..
it's always been illegal to put barbed wire up. The best thing is to apply anti-vandal paint (provided you put warning notices up first).
stickymcglue
says...
2:38pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Treas
says...
2:52pm Fri 4 Sep 09
espanuel
says...
3:05pm Fri 4 Sep 09
dannyep
says...
3:21pm Fri 4 Sep 09
I suppose it protects against householders laying boobytraps.
(And bear traps are probably poor feng shui)
Treas
says...
3:27pm Fri 4 Sep 09
soton1980 wrote:You would have to write the notice in about a thousand different languages my friend!
Surely if the allotment owners put up large and clear signs warning would be trespassers of the risk of injury it would be acceptable?
nictitate
says...
3:44pm Fri 4 Sep 09
"Remember that children are naturally curious, and will often get into apparently inaccessible places. Make sure you exclude them from potentially dangerous areas ... to deter access ... use fencing, such as pig netting topped with two strands of barbed wire, to an overall height of at least 1.3 m."
http://www.hse.gov.u
k/agriculture/topics
/children.htm
D.a.v.e
says...
4:18pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Condor Man wrote:Condor Man, The council tried this in Harefield about five years ago when local pensioners were getting bothered by local kids. They went to great lengths and painted tops of walls and fences. They even put up signs warning of "anti-climb" paint.
it's always been illegal to put barbed wire up. The best thing is to apply anti-vandal paint (provided you put warning notices up first).
You guessed it, the council then had threats and complaints from the parents as there little ferals had got it on there clothes!
How about growing a few stinging nettles or train brambles up the fence?
Vonnie
says...
4:25pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Regarding Health and Safety, every person in this country has a "duty of care" for the well being of everyone else. Criminals obviously flout that, and even if caught and prosecuted, the fact that they may have put other law abiding citizens at risk with their criminality is very rarely taken up in the Courts.
There needs to be a change in the wording of H&S Legislation which automatically puts personal damage done to a person who is engaging in criminal activity outside the "Duty of Care" clauses. In my opinion, that includes those engaged in burglary, breaking and entering, and criminal trespass.
Stupideditor
says...
4:29pm Fri 4 Sep 09
freemantlegirl2
says...
4:56pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Treas wrote:Someone seems to be obsessed with the Police! did they reject your application or something?
Quite right. The police in Southampton are useless, lazy, scruffy, and stupid. Ive reported break-ins to them and they are not interested. It is no wonder that people have to erect razor and barb wire barriers. What else is to be done to stop intruders? Get the police out of their cozy expensive German cars onto their feet and start walking around the towns, streets, viaages and parks.Forget nonsense and meaningless targets of response times and the like, and start monitoring how effective they are at actually preventing crime. What has the so-called new Chief Constable of Hampshire done for himself? He appears not to have the courage to say to his force "get out on your feet and arrest a few criminals". Gutless! Our poloice are a total disgrace
Good point by the person who looked on the HSE website and a possible loophole!
ex plodicus
says...
5:06pm Fri 4 Sep 09
More Sense Than Money!!
says...
5:45pm Fri 4 Sep 09
localnews
says...
5:49pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Plondon
says...
6:20pm Fri 4 Sep 09
TA-DA
SW = Hole-****
Southampton Heart
says...
6:44pm Fri 4 Sep 09
I'd love to go on...but as we don't have freedom of speech.....I don't want to offend anyone.
At the end of the day...anyone who has broken the law should be punished...not given free money and day trips.
I wish I was a judge.....they'd be no offenders by the time I'm finished.
Where has the Great Britain I knew gone?.
Condor Man
says...
6:56pm Fri 4 Sep 09
D.a.v.e wrote:by stating that you've applied the paint you can't be sued as you've told the people that if they try to get onto the fence they will get the paint on them. Our church has started doing this, provided that it's over 6 feet it's within the law.
Condor Man wrote: it's always been illegal to put barbed wire up. The best thing is to apply anti-vandal paint (provided you put warning notices up first).Condor Man, The council tried this in Harefield about five years ago when local pensioners were getting bothered by local kids. They went to great lengths and painted tops of walls and fences. They even put up signs warning of "anti-climb" paint. You guessed it, the council then had threats and complaints from the parents as there little ferals had got it on there clothes! How about growing a few stinging nettles or train brambles up the fence?
freemantlegirl2
says...
7:14pm Fri 4 Sep 09
ex plodicus wrote:Absolutely top idea! a goat would be an ideal solution, although it may get out and eat the produce lol... I fear someone would 'nick' it before it saw off the vandals. How about a flock of aggressive geese? ;) we used to use them as guard dogs when I was little!
barbed wire is legal as long as it is to hold livestock in, may i suggest the allotment holders all chip in and buy a goat! at about 75 quid. then absolutely cover the place in barbed wire. i hate the hse with a vengeance, just another name for big brother.
X Old Bill
says...
7:17pm Fri 4 Sep 09
This is done by running strands of wire on 'cranks' above each fence post. these are brackets leaning at 45 degrees inwards. Suitable metal or concrete posts are even available with the offset crank built in.
If you want to see them in use try looking at: Railways, Airports, Docks etc.
On the other hand Prisons, Military and other Government establishments seem to be able to get away with outward facing cranks. So it's OK for them!
St.DaveH
says...
7:21pm Fri 4 Sep 09
TwistedWitch
says...
8:17pm Fri 4 Sep 09
I agree with the poster who suggested geese, they can be right nasty lil beggers.
TW
Northamboy
says...
8:18pm Fri 4 Sep 09
More Sense Than Money!! wrote:Its a shame those making the laws and rules can't see things how normal people see them. They are all too busy covering their own backs from other law and rule makers. It's the never ending circle of stupid rules/laws that needs to be broken to get things back how they should be.
Northamboy... again, another comment so, so true!
Perhaps one day the law abiding people will come first and the toe rags will come second..........but I will never see it
southy
says...
8:23pm Fri 4 Sep 09
CompassPressureGroup wrote:i think you find the law say's no new barb wire below a certain hight, no to sure but i think its 2 mt's and it must be over hanging on the in side of the fence, but personal my self i would put up barbarian fencing its a very hard fence to climb over and if you slip at the top, it will do a lot of damage to the human body
Condor Man wrote:That is the advice given by police when protecting homes. So perhaps it makes sense to be no different for allotments, although this does, on the face of it, seem crazy. Its dreadful where it does occur, though many allotments do have sufficient security, or there are few problems with intrusion and/or vandalism..
it's always been illegal to put barbed wire up. The best thing is to apply anti-vandal paint (provided you put warning notices up first).
Treas
says...
8:55pm Fri 4 Sep 09
freemantlegirl2 wrote:Go on, ignore the fact that law and order are out of control in this country, and accept inadequate and lazy police officers. Police officers, many of whom claim that they are "depressed", "over worked", "can't cope", etc etc. Backed up by a strong quasi-union.In short they accept a job that when they are in the post, they just can't be bothered to do properly. I can confirm that I have absolutely no personal reason to question the effectiveness of our police force, other than first hand experience when I have reported crimes to them
Treas wrote: Quite right. The police in Southampton are useless, lazy, scruffy, and stupid. Ive reported break-ins to them and they are not interested. It is no wonder that people have to erect razor and barb wire barriers. What else is to be done to stop intruders? Get the police out of their cozy expensive German cars onto their feet and start walking around the towns, streets, viaages and parks.Forget nonsense and meaningless targets of response times and the like, and start monitoring how effective they are at actually preventing crime. What has the so-called new Chief Constable of Hampshire done for himself? He appears not to have the courage to say to his force "get out on your feet and arrest a few criminals". Gutless! Our poloice are a total disgraceSomeone seems to be obsessed with the Police! did they reject your application or something? Good point by the person who looked on the HSE website and a possible loophole!
X Old Bill
says...
9:01pm Fri 4 Sep 09
Perhaps the a reason for banning barbed wire is because someone with connections wants to make money selling steel palisade fencing.
It is good stuff, made to BS1722, very hard to climb and can be ordered with spikes on top.
It is, however, very expensive compared to 2 metre chain link with wire topping.
McSholing
says...
10:20pm Fri 4 Sep 09
ken j wrote:When who takes over?
Why do you think every one wants to live here, the criminal is protected and thehonest folk persecuted!bet the muslims wont allow it when they take over,there will be a lot of single gloves around
Dream on Kenji.
McSholing
says...
11:08pm Fri 4 Sep 09
X Old Bill wrote:Good post mate but, hold on a minute? Why are these people even having to spend money on barbed-wire? This is not a dig at the cops but, where are they?
My understanding of the use of barbed wire is that the installation has to be entirely within the protected area, in other words the intruder needs to have actually entered onto the property BEFORE they encounter the wire.
This is done by running strands of wire on 'cranks' above each fence post. these are brackets leaning at 45 degrees inwards. Suitable metal or concrete posts are even available with the offset crank built in.
If you want to see them in use try looking at: Railways, Airports, Docks etc.
On the other hand Prisons, Military and other Government establishments seem to be able to get away with outward facing cranks. So it's OK for them!
Why do the people of this country pay out so much in tax and meekly accept so little back?
Stubs
says...
11:17pm Fri 4 Sep 09
hooligan
says...
9:21am Sat 5 Sep 09
freemantlegirl2
says...
9:40am Sat 5 Sep 09
Treas wrote:Not ignoring that fact, I just choose to be more constructive than just sitting behind my computer screen slagging them off! My experience is completely the opposite, I had cause to ring the Police yesterday about a minor incident. They were polite, courteous and took it seriously. It's not the officers themselves that are at fault, it's the system we live within, the fracturing of communities. That is what causes vandalism. One cannot expect the police to be guarding allotments day and night, frustrating as it is for the allotment holders, which is why they should be afforded some long-term solution from the Council. I see this story has made the national press today (see Daily Mirror) don't know if it's in any others. I do hope the allotment holders find a solution, even if it's holding an 'open day' and inviting local youngsters down to see what hard work goes into it. Putting up a few strands of barbed wire I fear won't get rid of the problem, although I do believe that these people have a right to protect their hard work! Surely we need to engage with each other, not put up more barriers? it's our sense of community and mutual respect for each other that has been lost. Whether we are able to get it back remains to be seen....
freemantlegirl2 wrote:Go on, ignore the fact that law and order are out of control in this country, and accept inadequate and lazy police officers. Police officers, many of whom claim that they are "depressed", "over worked", "can't cope", etc etc. Backed up by a strong quasi-union.In short they accept a job that when they are in the post, they just can't be bothered to do properly. I can confirm that I have absolutely no personal reason to question the effectiveness of our police force, other than first hand experience when I have reported crimes to them
Treas wrote: Quite right. The police in Southampton are useless, lazy, scruffy, and stupid. Ive reported break-ins to them and they are not interested. It is no wonder that people have to erect razor and barb wire barriers. What else is to be done to stop intruders? Get the police out of their cozy expensive German cars onto their feet and start walking around the towns, streets, viaages and parks.Forget nonsense and meaningless targets of response times and the like, and start monitoring how effective they are at actually preventing crime. What has the so-called new Chief Constable of Hampshire done for himself? He appears not to have the courage to say to his force "get out on your feet and arrest a few criminals". Gutless! Our poloice are a total disgraceSomeone seems to be obsessed with the Police! did they reject your application or something? Good point by the person who looked on the HSE website and a possible loophole!
southy
says...
1:42pm Sat 5 Sep 09
McSholing wrote:it is a good post, but the reason why railways, airports, docks, prisons, and government location can get away with having the barb wire hanging out and not in ward of the fence, is because it comes under national security and/or national safety protection laws.
X Old Bill wrote:Good post mate but, hold on a minute? Why are these people even having to spend money on barbed-wire? This is not a dig at the cops but, where are they?
My understanding of the use of barbed wire is that the installation has to be entirely within the protected area, in other words the intruder needs to have actually entered onto the property BEFORE they encounter the wire.
This is done by running strands of wire on 'cranks' above each fence post. these are brackets leaning at 45 degrees inwards. Suitable metal or concrete posts are even available with the offset crank built in.
If you want to see them in use try looking at: Railways, Airports, Docks etc.
On the other hand Prisons, Military and other Government establishments seem to be able to get away with outward facing cranks. So it's OK for them!
Why do the people of this country pay out so much in tax and meekly accept so little back?
X Old Bill i noticed that you called barbarian fencing, palisade fencing. palisade fencing is a trade name. and yes it do cost a lot to buy.
goard
says...
2:03pm Sat 5 Sep 09
goard
Linesman
says...
5:18pm Sat 5 Sep 09
ex plodicus
says...
6:43pm Sat 5 Sep 09
loneranger has also been removed, he asked me why i was so peeved at our police force? watch a film called serpico! this still happens in the good old uk and usa. i do not trust any one.
sw/tear-hair. you obviously have some sense of humour at the echo.
by the way i was a rocker! thats why the mod removes my post!
X Old Bill
says...
7:20pm Sat 5 Sep 09
Thanks for the support Southy (and McSholing!)but you have got it the wrong way round. Barbarian is the trade name and Palisade is the generic. - When I was working I was not allowed to specify particular manufacturers in case someone accused me of taking a backhander, it's a habit that has stuck.
And please don't tempt me to get started on present day Policing in the Country. As far as I am concerned they lost the plot when they started trying to imitate the commercial world, without the actual profit incentive.
ex plodicus
says...
7:49pm Sat 5 Sep 09
sw blow-true. lmao
southy
says...
9:12pm Sat 5 Sep 09
X Old Bill wrote:unless you was a law man back in the 1920'. you would not be taking a back hander, because palisade iron works, went bankrupt in the big depression in the 1920's, it got its name barbarian because of the shape of the 3 spikes at the top of each rail.
quote: 'X Old Bill i noticed that you called barbarian fencing, palisade fencing. palisade fencing is a trade name. and yes it do cost a lot to buy'.
Thanks for the support Southy (and McSholing!)but you have got it the wrong way round. Barbarian is the trade name and Palisade is the generic. - When I was working I was not allowed to specify particular manufacturers in case someone accused me of taking a backhander, it's a habit that has stuck.
And please don't tempt me to get started on present day Policing in the Country. As far as I am concerned they lost the plot when they started trying to imitate the commercial world, without the actual profit incentive.
agree with you on to day policing, they have lost the plot totally.
thesouth
says...
5:27pm Sun 6 Sep 09
Ken Hutchinson says...
11:41am Fri 4 Sep 09