MPs back challenge to IBM pension plan (From This is Hampshire)

interesting that the case has been taken up by Lib Dem and Tory MP's, nothing from Labour MP's from Southampton and Portsmouth- probably because it was their policies that caused pension problems in the first place

'IBM says the actions it is taking will enable it to maintain competitiveness in the marketplace.'

That doesnt mean anything for the employee with 20 to 30 years of loyal experience who feel sold out by the company.

Condor.
IBM are an anti Union employer with no regards to employee pensions.
They like many other companies went on Pension Holidays in the early 90s (Tory Government) while at the same time promoting their PRIVATE pension schemes that were based on investing in the markets.

Just try and learn Condor.

Iw61 wrote:
Condor. IBM are an anti Union employer with no regards to employee pensions. They like many other companies went on Pension Holidays in the early 90s (Tory Government) while at the same time promoting their PRIVATE pension schemes that were based on investing in the markets. Just try and learn Condor.

no mention of Brown helping himself to 25% of people's pensions back in 1998 then?

Condor Man wrote:

Iw61 wrote:
Condor. IBM are an anti Union employer with no regards to employee pensions. They like many other companies went on Pension Holidays in the early 90s (Tory Government) while at the same time promoting their PRIVATE pension schemes that were based on investing in the markets. Just try and learn Condor.

no mention of Brown helping himself to 25% of people's pensions back in 1998 then?

No mention of employers under the Tories taking Pension contribution holidays!!
Brown is a pratt and wrong. Now it it your turn to say the same about the equally incompetent Tories under CaMoron.

Cameron's not been in power for the past 12 years so any policies he may have can not be tested so until there's an election. To be honest I'd rather see William Hague contesting the election but there's the Tory party for you.

Did IBM go on a "pension holiday" in the early 1990s? I'd be interested to see the details as I believe they introduced their first "Career Transition PRrogramme" (redundancy) package in 1991 during which all employees electing to leave were given astonishingly generous paid up pensions all of which were in what is now referred to as "Defined Benefit". Several thousand took the package. So I'd be very interested to see the actual figures of IBM's "Pension Holiday" from 1985 to 1995. Do you have the details IW61?

"people in their mid-50s could typically lose up to £200,000."
Wow! Now Thats What I Call 'Salary Sacrifice'.
Still, not to worry, all pensions will be worthless as Capitalism teeters towards it's inevitable collapse.
A collapse as inevitable as that of the Berlin Wall.
Buy food, grow food, store food.
Other items that could come in handy - guns, knives and baseball bats.
Also matches, tampons and toilet roll.
The last thing anyone will need is a pension.

Militant Ford Worker wrote:
"people in their mid-50s could typically lose up to £200,000."
Wow! Now Thats What I Call 'Salary Sacrifice'.
Still, not to worry, all pensions will be worthless as Capitalism teeters towards it's inevitable collapse.
A collapse as inevitable as that of the Berlin Wall.
Buy food, grow food, store food.
Other items that could come in handy - guns, knives and baseball bats.
Also matches, tampons and toilet roll.
The last thing anyone will need is a pension.

In your dreams MFW. There are many things wrong with capitalism but on the whole the system has brought you and your family a prosperity that even your recent forebears could only dream of. But just because others got even more out of it than you your envy has made you obsessed with bringing the whole thing down so everybody can all eat gruel together under a 30W bulb in a damp unlit concrete tenament instead. Socialists always claim that their own idealistic vision won't fall into corrupt totalitarianism like every other socialist dream in history, and of course Southy comes on here to tell us that in Libya and Cuba people dance with joy in the streets every day under benevolent socialism but then he cannot explain why Cubans would sooner die trying to live in poverty in Miami than in heaven in Havana. So which side of the Berlin wall would you have liked to be MFW? That's the real alternative whether you like it or not Welcome to Gorky, comrade. Luckily you listed the great Socialist persuader yourself - the baseball bat so everyone knows the kind of argument you need. With one of those in your hands everyone will see your point of view won't they?

Andy Locks Heath wrote:

Militant Ford Worker wrote: "people in their mid-50s could typically lose up to £200,000." Wow! Now Thats What I Call 'Salary Sacrifice'. Still, not to worry, all pensions will be worthless as Capitalism teeters towards it's inevitable collapse. A collapse as inevitable as that of the Berlin Wall. Buy food, grow food, store food. Other items that could come in handy - guns, knives and baseball bats. Also matches, tampons and toilet roll. The last thing anyone will need is a pension.

In your dreams MFW. There are many things wrong with capitalism but on the whole the system has brought you and your family a prosperity that even your recent forebears could only dream of. But just because others got even more out of it than you your envy has made you obsessed with bringing the whole thing down so everybody can all eat gruel together under a 30W bulb in a damp unlit concrete tenament instead. Socialists always claim that their own idealistic vision won't fall into corrupt totalitarianism like every other socialist dream in history, and of course Southy comes on here to tell us that in Libya and Cuba people dance with joy in the streets every day under benevolent socialism but then he cannot explain why Cubans would sooner die trying to live in poverty in Miami than in heaven in Havana. So which side of the Berlin wall would you have liked to be MFW? That's the real alternative whether you like it or not Welcome to Gorky, comrade. Luckily you listed the great Socialist persuader yourself - the baseball bat so everyone knows the kind of argument you need. With one of those in your hands everyone will see your point of view won't they?

Quite right, look at the mess being created in Venezuala. One of the world's largest oil producers the country is turning into the new Zimbabwe by Hugo Chavez as he looks to create a totalitarian state. First he though the US oil firms out, now he's chucking out Japanese car firms. He's closing banks and will wipe out savings when he eventually changes the currency.

Remember MFW that your employer can only survive in a capitalist market economy. Take away freedom of goods and trade and you'll create the mess you'll find in Cuba, Venezuala, Iran, North Korea and Zimbabwe.

Sadly the answer is to retrain as I've had to do.

andy the whole system of capitalism dont work any more, it started to show its pit fall at the start of the industral revolution and it been getting worse has time go's by, and can only get worse for the future.
you and many others only got what they have got today is because of what the unions got you and others also left wing policys for the last 90 plus years, and capitalism (right wing policys) is trying to take all that away, with in the last 30 years we have gone back wards, back to the state of the 1920's and it will not be long before we are back to the early victorian times. capitalism is a path of destruction the only problem is it will not just take it self there its going to take a load of others with it. And thats why people are starting to look towards socialism again on a world wide scale this time.
you talk about cuba and libya have you ever gone there and i dont mean the tourist hot spots, i mean gone down into the streets and talk to the locals, they are not happy nor are they unhappy they are contented they know they are better of under a socialism than under capitalism to many of them remember what its like living under capitalism, but they have not made the same mistake has we did in this country, we did not teach our off spring the difference and what it really means to live under capitalism.
and your cubans in usa most are from the days of capitalist cuba, they was capitalist them selfs or are the off spring of them. they went to the usa with all there money and wealth and now look at them they have nothing, your capitalist world usa in this case took all there wealth away from them, being a capitalism means i want all pure greed, like in a case of the cubans oil fields usa cant have so they are stealing it by drilling across the boarder. but nothing being said about this.
did you watch that doc on tv 4 weeks ago about the wall. most ordinary people that live on the east side. want to go back to the way it was, because they have less now than they did before, they dont have jobs, dont have money they losing there homes crime is more than 4 fold.
andy capitalism is all about greed, thats why there is so much propaganda about it being good when its not greed is evil, it thinks of it self and no one else, you take the greed out of capitalism and you will have moved into socialism.
has with ibm and there pension holiday i do know a little abit about it but not much

condor man that pure bs and you know it, and all you been doing is listen to usa capitalist propaganda and why all this propaganda is because of the usa biggest oil companys want that country wealth for has little has possible if not for nothing, the oil companys have been robbing venezuala for years then comes along a guy who took it away from them and put all that wealth into that country, they now have better education better welfare more jobs less crime homes are improving, there is a lot less proverty. on the whole the majority of people in venezuala are better off, thats why its people have been returning the same socialist party for the last 5 elections and will more than likey be returning the same government next year. look what happen back in 99 venezuala offered the uk cheap cure oil and what did blair do he refused it, and why well it was because the usa told the uk to refuse it, the usa is trying to stop countrys from buying it even at the market price. burma will be your next country that will turn to socialism and will do the same take there oil away from the oil companys and nationalise it and then put the wealth into the country.

It is very amusing to see the capitalist lackeys bite.
There are a few posters on here whose forbears - just a generation or two ago - were either 'in service' or worked the land yet they think that having a mortgage and a maxed out credit card somehow makes them middle class.
It just makes them wage slaves.
The idea is you have to slave away for 25 - 30 years before you can buy your freedom in the form of a Pension.
Now we see this option being withdrawn. At best you will have to slave a little longer - the reality facing
workers at IBM is a massive shortfall in their promised benefits.
Many others will have no pension at all as one scheme after another folds.
Even the Pension Protection Fund is now in deficit to the tune of £1.25bill.
There isn't going to be enough to go round.
(There was for the bankers - but there won't be for the workers.)
Without substantial inherited wealth (i.e Land ) to fall back on people will be brought back level of serfs.
Property ownership is beyond the reach of most young people now.
Rampant lanlordism, no provision for old age, disposable income going to service debt for the benefit of bankers and landlords...how was it the Russian revolution started?

Southy I agree that the Unions were a force for good and in the absence of government legislation they are a necessary force for good - but that does not mean that all captialism has failed. The industrial revolution under socialism would have been nothing more than a nightmare of a commodity producer economy of the kind seen in current and former socialist countries today. What made it special was creating enough wealth to enable new markets to develop, and so it enriched the world. Yes of course those tht risked their own fortuned became a lot richer than those who worked in the mills but the mill workers in England ended up with far more than the workers in China or Russia, and they had things to spend their wealth on - something that cannot happen in a controlled economy. And will you stop talking to me as though I am one of you? I'm not My parents and grandparents may have been as poor as yours but I spent 7 years in higher education to turn myself into an expert in one particular field and my career since has been a drive to improve my life and that of my family. It has all been hard work and continues to be. Nobody counts the hours and weekends studying as work but that's what separated me from those who couldn't be bothered, like yourself and MFW. MFW and you know absolutely nothing about IBM or its workings and to see you attempting to lay a flimsy socialist template on events you clearly know nothing about is quite humorous.

Andy Locks Heath wrote:
Did IBM go on a "pension holiday" in the early 1990s? I'd be interested to see the details as I believe they introduced their first "Career Transition PRrogramme" (redundancy) package in 1991 during which all employees electing to leave were given astonishingly generous paid up pensions all of which were in what is now referred to as "Defined Benefit". Several thousand took the package. So I'd be very interested to see the actual figures of IBM's "Pension Holiday" from 1985 to 1995. Do you have the details IW61?

I havent the details offhand, no. But IBMers I know have referred to it and it has of course been raised in Parliament. See here
http://www.theyworkf
oryou.com/whall/?id=
2010-01-13a.300.0