A NEW wave of wind
turbines could soon be
changing Southampton's
skyline with the first
design inspired by the
iconic Spitfire.
The council is to start a consultation
on building up to 20 of the
medium-sized turbines, about 15-
metres high, on commercial and
industrial sites, in a bid to
respond to climate change.
The first would incorporate a
design reflecting the Spitfire heritage
of the city with blades profiled
like the propellers that made
the RJ Mitchell aircraft iconic. It
will be cased in a Merlin engine.
The turbine has been earmarked
for the Woolston riverside site of
the former Supermarine factory
that built more than 8,000 thousand
Spitfires.
Councillor Richard Williams,
Cabinet member for environment
and sustainability, said: "When it
comes to innovation it is only fitting
that we look at how we can
commemorate and pay tribute to
one of Southampton's greatest
innovators - RJ Mitchell."
He said separate proposals for a
permanent Spitfire memorial,
long called for by campaigners,
would be unaffected.
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Cllr Williams said using wind
power in Southampton was essential
if the city was to meet its
renewable energy goals.
He said they would be built by
the private sector, subject to usual
procurement procedures and feasibility
studies, at no cost to the
taxpayer.
Cllr Williams said they would
generate enough electricity for up
to 1,000 homes.
But council officers suggested
that each turbine would generate
a maximum electricity output for
up 22 homes in high winds.
Cllr Williams said: "It's got to be
a sizeable amount of sites to start
with to get private sector interested.
If we can find more sites that's
fantastic."
Dave Hutchings, director of
Dorset-based Equinox Energy,
which installs wind turbines, said
a 15kW turbine with a 9-metre
blade, usually put on a 25-metre
mast, would provide power for
just ten homes.
"They would be better to go for
one big one. It's much better.
Apart from the fact people might
object to it aesthetically," he said.
Southampton Test Labour MP
Alan Whitehead recently wanted
to put a micro-wind turbine on top
of his home but ditched the idea
after being told there wasn't
enough wind.
Wind turbines need a wind
speed of 4 to 5 metres per second
(m/s) to start working.
A study by Southampton
University found wind speeds in
the eastern docks, one of the
windiest parts of the city, only
reached a high of 7.9m/s, with a
low of 5.1m/s. A separate study is
now being carried out by
researchers into the performance
of small to medium-sized turbines,
which is largely unknown.
Plans for a giant wind turbine at
a secret location on the northern
edge of the city are still progressing.
It would generate enough
power to supply 1,500 homes.
There are also plans to install
small turbines at a Southampton
school.
Posted by: Interested observer, Shirley on 11:47am Thu 20 Mar 08
Is there any problem with putting wind turbines on the top of tower blocks (already accepted impact on the landscape)? I would have thought that the wind strength is higher, more consistent and unaffected by other buildings. Possibly they might interfere with mobile phone masts?
Is there any problem with putting wind turbines on the top of tower blocks (already accepted impact on the landscape)? I would have thought that the wind strength is higher, more consistent and unaffected by other buildings. Possibly they might interfere with mobile phone masts?
Posted by: Andy, Locks Heath on 12:20pm Thu 20 Mar 08
I'll make it simple for Cllr Williams since maths isn't his strongpoint. You draw a graph, with days of the year divided into hours along the x axis. And on the y axis you plot two lines - 1) is the energy demand based on the average temperature and 2) is the energy supply based on average wind speed and the ability of 5, 10, 20...you name it...windmills to generate it. Now at every point where line 2 dips below line 1 people start to die. Where are you going to get your energy defecit from Cllr Williams, if every city has a clown like you who just thinks the defecit is magically filled from "somewhere else"? What price your precious green city, when old people and babies are dying during the power cuts that you failed to prevent?
I'll make it simple for Cllr Williams since maths isn't his strongpoint. You draw a graph, with days of the year divided into hours along the x axis. And on the y axis you plot two lines - 1) is the energy demand based on the average temperature and 2) is the energy supply based on average wind speed and the ability of 5, 10, 20...you name it...windmills to generate it. Now at every point where line 2 dips below line 1 people start to die. Where are you going to get your energy defecit from Cllr Williams, if every city has a clown like you who just thinks the defecit is magically filled from "somewhere else"? What price your precious green city, when old people and babies are dying during the power cuts that you failed to prevent?
Posted by: carla, southampton on 12:27pm Thu 20 Mar 08
they will be built by the private sector, cllr williams is fooling himself and the public. Even his own officers are saying his numbers dont stack up. why is this person in charge!
they will be built by the private sector, cllr williams is fooling himself and the public. Even his own officers are saying his numbers dont stack up. why is this person in charge!
An utterly pointless exercise by the council who are only doing it to boast about their "green credentials" to other councils.
The reality is that Wind turbines are very inefficient. Expensive. Unreliable (gearboxes have to be replaced annually). Noisy. Plus, they can't even operate when its very windy! They have to shut down.
This is just a bad PR exercise. The figures about powering a certain number of homes via these turbines are complete fantasy.
An utterly pointless exercise by the council who are only doing it to boast about their "green credentials" to other councils.
The reality is that Wind turbines are very inefficient. Expensive. Unreliable (gearboxes have to be replaced annually). Noisy. Plus, they can't even operate when its very windy! They have to shut down.
This is just a bad PR exercise. The figures about powering a certain number of homes via these turbines are complete fantasy.
Was'nt a Spitfire propeller Black with yellow tips. Why not build the rest of the aircraft behind the propeller. Also is'nt the pitch on an aircraft propeller designed to pull the aircraft forward throught the air, and not be turned by the wind.
Was'nt a Spitfire propeller Black with yellow tips. Why not build the rest of the aircraft behind the propeller. Also is'nt the pitch on an aircraft propeller designed to pull the aircraft forward throught the air, and not be turned by the wind.
Posted by: pete, westminister on 2:30pm Thu 20 Mar 08
the numbers do not add up, council officers and teh company that makes the turbines. No company is going to bid, with such sound backing.
consultation? if the private sector is going to bid who and what are they going to propose has to be established or has cllr williams already decided? then you have consultation. Cllr Williams must live in dream land. this is never going to go anywhere
the numbers do not add up, council officers and teh company that makes the turbines. No company is going to bid, with such sound backing.
consultation? if the private sector is going to bid who and what are they going to propose has to be established or has cllr williams already decided? then you have consultation. Cllr Williams must live in dream land. this is never going to go anywhere
Posted by: Mikeyt, Southampton on 3:25pm Thu 20 Mar 08
Maybe the first wind turbines should provide power to the Cllr's home and office. Then after a year he can come back and tell us how good the idea is (NOT)
Maybe the first wind turbines should provide power to the Cllr's home and office. Then after a year he can come back and tell us how good the idea is (NOT)
Boasting about green credentials. A big polluter is the Itchen Bridge - the toll booths hold up traffic back to Bursledon in the mornings. The Tay and Forth bridges have recently removed the booths for this reason.
Boasting about green credentials. A big polluter is the Itchen Bridge - the toll booths hold up traffic back to Bursledon in the mornings. The Tay and Forth bridges have recently removed the booths for this reason.
As a matter of interest, Vestas Blades, which is located close to the old Spitfire factory, are a major manufacturer of wind turbines.
Anyone interested can google for vestas blades southampton uk
As a matter of interest, Vestas Blades, which is located close to the old Spitfire factory, are a major manufacturer of wind turbines.
Anyone interested can google for vestas blades southampton uk
[quote][bold]Andy[/bold] wrote:
I'll make it simple for Cllr Williams since maths isn't his strongpoint. You draw a graph, with days of the year divided into hours along the x axis. And on the y axis you plot two lines - 1) is the energy demand based on the average temperature and 2) is the energy supply based on average wind speed and the ability of 5, 10, 20...you name it...windmills to generate it. Now at every point where line 2 dips below line 1 people start to die. Where are you going to get your energy defecit from Cllr Williams, if every city has a clown like you who just thinks the defecit is magically filled from "somewhere else"? What price your precious green city, when old people and babies are dying during the power cuts that you failed to prevent?[/quote] Forinfo ...
You can't accurately estimate the energy delivered by a wind turbine from average wind speed - you need to measure the distribution of wind speeds because higher speeds deliver much more power (power is related to the cube of the wind speed).
References to how many homes-worth of electricity they generate are notional. Homes will remain connected to the national grid and have access to as much electricity as anyone else. Electricity from the turbines is fed into the grid.
To suggest people would die when energy demand can not be met 100% by output from wind turbines is bizarre.
Andy wrote:
I'll make it simple for Cllr Williams since maths isn't his strongpoint. You draw a graph, with days of the year divided into hours along the x axis. And on the y axis you plot two lines - 1) is the energy demand based on the average temperature and 2) is the energy supply based on average wind speed and the ability of 5, 10, 20...you name it...windmills to generate it. Now at every point where line 2 dips below line 1 people start to die. Where are you going to get your energy defecit from Cllr Williams, if every city has a clown like you who just thinks the defecit is magically filled from "somewhere else"? What price your precious green city, when old people and babies are dying during the power cuts that you failed to prevent?
Forinfo ...
You can't accurately estimate the energy delivered by a wind turbine from average wind speed - you need to measure the distribution of wind speeds because higher speeds deliver much more power (power is related to the cube of the wind speed).
References to how many homes-worth of electricity they generate are notional. Homes will remain connected to the national grid and have access to as much electricity as anyone else. Electricity from the turbines is fed into the grid.
To suggest people would die when energy demand can not be met 100% by output from wind turbines is bizarre.
Not sure about the comment that the performance of small and medium-sized turbines is largely unknown. Plenty is known about them.
Also intrigued by the comment about blades profiled like a spitfire prop. Blade designs are optimised to extract energy efficiently from the wind and changing their shape would make them less efficient ... which seems a bit pointless.
Not sure about the comment that the performance of small and medium-sized turbines is largely unknown. Plenty is known about them.
Also intrigued by the comment about blades profiled like a spitfire prop. Blade designs are optimised to extract energy efficiently from the wind and changing their shape would make them less efficient ... which seems a bit pointless.
Posted by: Andy, Locks Heath on 10:23pm Thu 20 Mar 08
It's not as bizarre J, as your lack of understanding how complex systems work. I made the point that keeping supply in excess of demand is not just an aspiration, as the Greens would have us believe, it is a life and death necessity. Power cuts translate into deaths, whether through complex machines needing to be reset (think incubators and life support systems) or computers that control machinery needing to reboot after a trip, heating systems that trip out, do I really need to conjure up more examples? Expensive UPS solutions cannot be relied on to work, as I have found out to my cost! By the way if you can;t accurately measure the supply capability of a single wind turbine (which is a pretty silly hair splitting point tbh)then it is best to plan on their minimum capability as we do with all cititical systems. Talk of optimal capability is a waste of time....unless you can tell in advance exactly when those optima will occur.Perhaps that will be next week's claim.
It's not as bizarre J, as your lack of understanding how complex systems work. I made the point that keeping supply in excess of demand is not just an aspiration, as the Greens would have us believe, it is a life and death necessity. Power cuts translate into deaths, whether through complex machines needing to be reset (think incubators and life support systems) or computers that control machinery needing to reboot after a trip, heating systems that trip out, do I really need to conjure up more examples? Expensive UPS solutions cannot be relied on to work, as I have found out to my cost! By the way if you can;t accurately measure the supply capability of a single wind turbine (which is a pretty silly hair splitting point tbh)then it is best to plan on their minimum capability as we do with all cititical systems. Talk of optimal capability is a waste of time....unless you can tell in advance exactly when those optima will occur.Perhaps that will be next week's claim.
Posted by: live local, southampton on 11:02pm Thu 20 Mar 08
What an inspiring plan
The spitfire turbine for Woolston.
What about the Telly tubbies turbine for out side the council ofices for those in LA LA land?
One based on the pit and the pendulun, with axes attached and low life scum of the city could be made to walk around underneath it until they have a nasty accident.
Ps Where was the Merlin engine designed? I thought it was made by Rolls Royce if so should that turbine be in Bristol??
What an inspiring plan
The spitfire turbine for Woolston.
What about the Telly tubbies turbine for out side the council ofices for those in LA LA land?
One based on the pit and the pendulun, with axes attached and low life scum of the city could be made to walk around underneath it until they have a nasty accident.
Ps Where was the Merlin engine designed? I thought it was made by Rolls Royce if so should that turbine be in Bristol??
[quote][bold]Andy[/bold] wrote:
It's not as bizarre J, as your lack of understanding how complex systems work. I made the point that keeping supply in excess of demand is not just an aspiration, as the Greens would have us believe, it is a life and death necessity. Power cuts translate into deaths, whether through complex machines needing to be reset (think incubators and life support systems) or computers that control machinery needing to reboot after a trip, heating systems that trip out, do I really need to conjure up more examples? Expensive UPS solutions cannot be relied on to work, as I have found out to my cost! By the way if you can;t accurately measure the supply capability of a single wind turbine (which is a pretty silly hair splitting point tbh)then it is best to plan on their minimum capability as we do with all cititical systems. Talk of optimal capability is a waste of time....unless you can tell in advance exactly when those optima will occur.Perhaps that will be next week's claim.[/quote] It's bizarre because no proponents of wind power or any other renewable enery source would suggest you only have access to the output of a handful of small turbines.
Management of supply would continue to be the job of the national grid and it would call upon resources of different types & in different locations. There is and should continue to be spare capacity on the grid (which could come from free-spinning turbines) as well as capacity that can be brought online virtually instantly in the event of an outage somewhere else (like the hydro scheme at Dinorwig that can reach 1800 MW in a few seconds)... ah, I'm beginning to talk about complex systems and I forgot that I don't know how they work.
And sorry for the hair splitting too.
Andy wrote:
It's not as bizarre J, as your lack of understanding how complex systems work. I made the point that keeping supply in excess of demand is not just an aspiration, as the Greens would have us believe, it is a life and death necessity. Power cuts translate into deaths, whether through complex machines needing to be reset (think incubators and life support systems) or computers that control machinery needing to reboot after a trip, heating systems that trip out, do I really need to conjure up more examples? Expensive UPS solutions cannot be relied on to work, as I have found out to my cost! By the way if you can;t accurately measure the supply capability of a single wind turbine (which is a pretty silly hair splitting point tbh)then it is best to plan on their minimum capability as we do with all cititical systems. Talk of optimal capability is a waste of time....unless you can tell in advance exactly when those optima will occur.Perhaps that will be next week's claim.
It's bizarre because no proponents of wind power or any other renewable enery source would suggest you only have access to the output of a handful of small turbines.
Management of supply would continue to be the job of the national grid and it would call upon resources of different types & in different locations. There is and should continue to be spare capacity on the grid (which could come from free-spinning turbines) as well as capacity that can be brought online virtually instantly in the event of an outage somewhere else (like the hydro scheme at Dinorwig that can reach 1800 MW in a few seconds)... ah, I'm beginning to talk about complex systems and I forgot that I don't know how they work.
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